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Q and A with Murray Capill and John Paterson

They can't decide on a chair, so I don't know what that means about answering questions.
There are so many questions here, you just watch it then.
You should try working with this fellow, I see.
Okay, well Murray, there are lots of questions for you and a number for John.
So we might start with you Murray, is that alright?
Now, I'll just keep one eye on the time so we can get home tonight.
Okay, well, here we go Murray.
I always thought that when you were born again, you knew it had actually happened
and that we needed to repent.
In Sunday morning's talk in phase two you mentioned some children were saved very early in life.
Could you explain about repentance and being born again in this case?
Okay, being born again is an inward heart work of the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit regenerates us, gives us a spark of new life, gives us a new heart.
That's something deep and inward.
It's a mysterious work, the wind blows where it will and so does with the work of the Spirit.
The evidence of that, the first fruits of that regeneration are repentance and faith.
So the Lord works in the heart and that will begin to produce faith in Christ and repentance from sin.
You don't see regeneration, you see the fruit of it and you see that in an ongoing way
so that repentance and faith is not a one-off thing.
It becomes a life of faith in Christ and a life of turning from sin.
So it's possible that the Holy Spirit would work in a child, say, a very tender young age.
When John the Baptist leapt in the womb, was John the Baptist regenerate in the womb?
I don't know. Maybe, it's possible.
The Holy Spirit can work as and when and how He wants.
So in time then you will see the evidence of that which will be repentance and faith
and that will be ongoing and it will last a lifetime.
So that's why I think there's a right distinction between regeneration and conversion.
We can't see regeneration but as a result of it we will see conversion, repentance and faith.
That's beautiful Murray, I think it's fantastic.
Mine is not.
Murray, is it true that it takes no New Zealanders to change a light bulb because they like staying in the dark?
Is that a serious question?
I can't believe you're trying there.
Actually I've been thinking about your earlier one about departure tax in New Zealanders.
Oh, there's an answer to that.
Well, there are various answers to that.
It's actually the price of folly.
25 Australian dollars.
New Zealand dollars actually.
21 Australian dollars.
There was an earlier New Zealand Prime Minister who said every time someone
emigrates from New Zealand to Australia it raises the average IQ of both countries.
Anyway, let's go on to the next question.
Murray, this is you Murray.
Murray distinguishes between someone who has converted to Christianity at a young age
and someone who has learnt to mask their underlying sin.
Is there really much of a difference?
Okay, if someone is say regenerate by the Holy Spirit very young you'll begin to see
evidences of that in their little life but I think this question is asking then
can you see a difference between that and a little child who isn't regenerate
and they're learning through politeness to mask sin?
I'd say not necessarily.
I don't think you can necessarily see that easily which is why I think we're sensible
not to be too quick to jump to conclusions about children.
We observe, we watch, we hope, we pray, we perhaps see these little evidences
of the Lord at work in their lives and we hope that it is indeed that, a work of the Lord.
But because children are natural imitators I guess it's going to take time
and so we watch because we know that if it's the work of God it will last
and it will grow and it will flourish.
And so early on, I don't know, but I watch my kids and I pray
and you observe them coming to a stage where you think yeah, they're not just copying me
this is a real work of the Lord.
One more for you Murray before we give John a bit of a go.
You said that we have nothing to boast about, even our response to God is His gift.
Does that mean God is responsible for someone not making that response?
Well the Bible never puts it in those terms, no.
We are responsible for how we respond to God and God will hold all people responsible
for what they know. We're judged according to knowledge.
So the scriptures say that the whole of creation bears testimony to who God is
and if that's the only knowledge that people have of God then we're judged according to that knowledge.
And the more we are given the more accountable we are but we are responsible
and it's God's free grace and mercy that He'll work in some hearts and turn them and change them.
But He's not responsible for those hearts that have forever been hardened against Him.
So does that become a language thing Murray?
I mean that's a good question, a difficult one that lots of Christians struggle with isn't it?
If God is sovereign in His control over who comes to Him are people, is He responsible for who are rejected?
I just want to push you a bit more on that question. It's a hard one isn't it?
It is hard but there's a sense in which we all act freely
and the heart of sinful man freely chooses against God and God doesn't take responsibility for that.
God gave Adam free will and with that free will He chose against God and was responsible for that.
We fell in Adam and with a fallen will we continue to choose against God.
The only way that will change is if God changes our will, changes our heart
but He's not responsible for the hardness of our heart.
There is a free will question coming up so that might extend it a bit more. John?
There's several questions here John asking a similar thing.
If God brings evil and plans evil who is responsible for it and who is its author?
I think they all say something probably along those lines.
How can God not be responsible for evil when He created it?
One of the scriptures that I didn't look at yesterday though I had it in my...
Am I on? Thank you.
One of the references I had noted yesterday which we didn't have time to look at was
from Isaiah chapter 45 in verse 7 where God says,
I form the light and create darkness. I bring prosperity and create disaster.
I the Lord do these things and the word that when it says I create disaster
the real words created the word that we have in Genesis 1 where God created the heaven and the earth.
So that's the word they used there and the word disaster is really the word evil.
Ra, evil. And so in some sense I think the Lord is saying without any embarrassment
that all things are so under His hand that you can really say that they've come from Him.
I think that's what Job does. When Job loses his cattle and his crops and his children are killed
sometimes in part at the hands of a storm, in part at the hand of evil men,
Job doesn't say, well curse the evil men who killed my kids or who took my cattle
or curse the storm that brought the house down and killed my kids.
He doesn't even curse the devil through any senses behind it because you may remember
the devil had gone to God and said, look I want to curse God.
I curse Job, sorry, and we'll see that he'll deny you.
And God said to him, okay you can go so far.
And so the devil's involved and nature's involved and evil men are involved
and yet at the end of it all Job says the Lord gave and the Lord has taken away.
Blessed be the name of the Lord. And so it's where he goes back to the ultimate cause or the first cause.
He doesn't deny that Satan was active or that evil men were active or that the forces of nature were active
but he knows that behind everything is the hand of the living God.
So he can say the Lord gave and the Lord took away and then you go a chapter later,
that's the end of chapter one of Job, you go a dozen verses into chapter two
and that's just after Job has got all these boils and awful stuff from the soles of his feet to the top of his head
and he's in agony. And the Mrs. Job said to him, why don't you curse God and die?
He said, you silly woman. Shall we not accept both good and bad from the hand of the Lord?
And so when we talk about things that are evil we've got to say that all things in this world
come under the hand of the living God and we could say the Lord creates life,
forms the light and creates darkness, brings prosperity, creates disaster.
We've got to... that's full blown biblical God-centeredness I think
but it's never in a way... so that when... if I took one of the references from yesterday
that I quoted, did refer to in Acts chapter two when Peter is preaching the gospel
and he says to the Jews and the God-theorists who are there in Jerusalem
that they have murdered the Lord of glory and he does say there as we saw yesterday
he acknowledges that Jesus was handed over to them by God's set purpose and foreknowledge.
So they've done what's evil, suffering has resulted
but they, after they hear him, they cut to the heart and say what can we do?
Because they know they're under judgment for their sin.
So yes, is it true that it came from the hand of God? Yes.
Is it true that they sinned? Yes. Are they held accountable for their sin? Yes.
So when we talk about author and responsibility and accountability and things like that
we've got to say at least that many things. So yep, I mean the things that I've done in my life
and I've done some pretty stupid things and some wrong things and quite sinful things
I can rejoice and say well even those things, even the sinful things, the most stupid decision I've ever made
was in the wise and good plan of my Heavenly Father.
Now do I say therefore it doesn't matter? No I don't. I still weep over those things.
You fall John, you fall for doing that and I hope I do that till the day I die.
But even the action though was in the wonderful plan of a merciful God
and so as we talk about those sorts of questions of responsibility and author
and as I showed you a number of questions here which you've grouped for us
about the level of God's involvement and so on and so on.
How can God not be responsible for evil when He created it?
And if God ordains and sends evil, is He the author of evil?
We've got to be careful with our language but we've got to say at least those things that the Bible says I think.
Sure. Another one John?
Would you like?
I shouldn't say that, no. Another good case is Judas, isn't it?
On the same point because when Judas is at the last supper with Jesus
and Jesus says to Judas, go and do what it's ordained for you to do.
This is betraying the author's life.
But in another Gospel he says, I'm going to be betrayed but woe to that man by whom I'm betrayed.
Woe to Judas. He's going to be under the judgment of God for what he's doing.
That's the plan of God. There are hundreds of cases like that.
Sure, sure. Here's a more serious one.
John, now you have a lapel mic. Will we need to chain you to the pulpit to stop you wandering too far?
I tell you Ross, when I go to the Philippines each year, and that's where Conrad and I met,
I've been able to go now, this year will be my 17th year of pastors' conferences.
When I'm there, there's no microphone and there's about a hundred people in the room
and so it's hard to often be heard, especially if there's a storm and so on.
So I tend to actually go to the middle of the room and stand on a pew.
I think it's a great idea. You should do that here.
Okay, a couple of questions again John, linked together here.
I think they're saying a similar thing.
When considering God's will, this is the free will thing, when considering God's will,
where does that leave us with choice and free will if there is such a thing?
And I think a similar. Can you clarify the reform position on this point in regards to free will?
In one sense you can say there is no such thing as free will.
I reckon nobody who lined up for dessert today exercised their free will.
You made the choice of what to have on the basis of what you liked,
or whether it fitted with your diet or didn't fit with your diet,
or you wanted to be a pig and have something of everything like three or four guys,
whose names I won't just quite mention now.
There were sort of factors in your mind that governed the choice you made.
No action is ever totally free, and especially when it comes to big things.
So for argument's sake, I could say to Liz, look could you go out and jump over the building?
She'd say, oh I can't do that. I'd say of course you're not free to do it,
because it's not in your nature to do it.
If you were a gazelle or a bird or something like that, then you could perhaps have a go,
but if it's not in your nature you can't do it.
You can only really do what your nature allows you to do,
and your nature will only allow you to go within certain limits,
and within those limits you're free, but beyond that you're not.
And so I remember an illustration someone used once, he said that if you brought down a crow,
and you said you brought it in here, and you put on the one side down here a maggoty rabbit,
and you put over here a beautiful baked dinner which was just sort of exactly delicious,
which one would it choose? Well go for the maggots every time, because that's its nature.
And so as an unbeliever, someone outside of Christ, my nature, as Murray was saying,
will always be kept making wrong choices.
So in that sense I don't have such a, there's no such thing as a free will,
because I act only within the freedom of my nature, and my nature will always lead me corruptly.
So it depends what, if people think they've got a free will to stay an unbeliever or to become Christ,
and the decision is all up to them, they're kidding themselves.
Because if as Murray was saying, if they're dead, they can't do anything,
it's not within their nature, their nature's not alive.
I'm sure it's true for Murray, it's for me, when I've conducted a funeral,
I've never ever spoken to the person in the coffin.
I've never said get up or listen to me, because you'd be written off, wouldn't you?
More so than already I think.
You know that that body doesn't have the capacity to hear, to reason, to move.
And there's a sense in which you see it's futile to tell people to do something,
it's always futile, unless God, shames the person, enables them to do it.
So yeah, our will is free, but only within the limits of our nature.
And I think that's why Jesus said in John chapter 8, he says look to the Jews,
if the Son of Man, Jesus, if the Son of Man makes you free, you'll be really free.
And they say, we've always been free, which of course wasn't true, they were in prisons of Rome at the time,
but they sort of parted themselves on some sort of imagined freedom.
And Jesus said, no you're not, you're slaves of Satan to do his will.
And I mean, tell that to an unbeliever, he doesn't like that, that's true.
The unbeliever is doing what Satan wants him to do.
And until God makes you free, sets you free from that hold,
so you're free to move to Jesus and follow him, you'll always do what Satan wants.
And that's the freedom that we desperately need and we ought to be longing for,
and we ought to be praying for our friends that they experience that,
because if they don't get it, they've got buses.
The illustration of the maggoty carcass and the baked dinner is a helpful one, isn't it?
No, I heard a teacher here was explaining that concept to her young kids
and to a child that had asked that question.
And she said, what would you choose, this maggoty mouse or this beautiful carcass?
And up the back a little boy said, take the mouse, take the mouse.
So it doesn't always work, but...
Why Christians ought to be the most...
I can't work out why we're just raising the roof when we sing
and why we aren't turning the world upside down.
We've actually been set free from Satan, from sin, from death, from hell.
We're just in a different world.
And how it doesn't grab us and how we don't praise God for it, I just cannot work out.
But we still somehow got this thing that all depends upon us and our decision.
I mean, if we came back to the born again thing,
and when Jesus said to Nicodemus, you must be born again,
he wasn't giving Nicodemus a command, he was giving him a condition.
He wasn't telling him to get born again. You can't get born again.
How can a dead person live?
He was telling him a condition that unless it applied, he couldn't see the kingdom of God.
And then he goes on telling him only God can do it.
And that's when God set you free.
I mean, if I'm a Christian, I've been set free from the most awful sort of things.
Satan, death, sin, hell.
I mean, and I live such a pretty pathetic life, it just doesn't make sense, does it?
Thank you.
End of sermon, sorry.
Thank you. Just keep an eye on the time.
Okay, Murray.
Is it possible through the power of prayer to change God's election,
that is for God to have mercy on someone and then for them to be saved as a result of prayer?
And there's a number here in a similar line.
I mean, is it being said that we should only pray to God to thank him for his blessing
and not for other things, healing, cancer, things that may not clearly be the will of God?
Go with that one, Murray.
I don't know whether you both want to have a crack at that one or just you, Murray.
Is it possible to change God's electing purposes through prayer?
Why would you want to?
Because that would imply that we knew better than God.
And when we pray, we want to yield ourselves to the Lord
and submit to his will and cast ourselves on his sovereign wisdom.
So no, our prayers don't change God's will, which is a great mercy.
How often we're prayed for stupid things and God in his grace has overruled us.
Part of his fatherly love is to say no to us as well as yes to us sometimes.
So why do we pray?
Well, we pray because God has ordained prayer.
God wants us to pray.
God has put in place his eternal purposes and part of his purpose
is that will lay hold of his purposes by prayer.
So he has ordained prayer.
Therefore, prayer is powerful and effective because it's part of his plan,
which is great incentive to pray, great reason to pray according to his will.
Saying, thy will be done is not kind of the ultimate cop-out in prayer.
It's essential.
We only want those prayers answered which are according to his will.
So when we know what the will of the Lord is, we pray with great boldness and fervency
and the Lord hears and answers prayer.
Also we pray because it teaches us a right attitude toward him.
He wants us to be dependent children.
He wants us to go to him and ask and he wants to see that the good things he gives us
are from a fatherly hand to children who have come to him in dependence.
So there's great reason to pray but the reason is not to change God's mind
or to change his will or to change his electing purposes as if we knew better.
What about where we don't know?
This feels like cancer.
Yeah, well cancer is your area really John.
No, no.
Where we don't know God's will, I think we can pray with great earnestness and fervency
for the Lord to heal and the Lord to have mercy and we can plead with the Lord for that
knowing that he's powerful and he is well able to heal.
We also pray knowing that he might have other purposes because we don't know his will.
We don't know that healing is necessarily his purpose.
It may be that he wants to use us in some other way
and I think we always need to stop and just ask the question
what should we be praying for in this situation?
Maybe we should be praying that the Lord will sanctify us through that suffering
that he'll use us and give us opportunities to witness through that that we would never otherwise have had.
Maybe he will take us home early and that's not the worst thing that can happen
or maybe he'll bring healing.
So when we don't know God's will, I think we pray, we pray boldly, earnestly
but humbly submitting ourselves to the Lord and what he might want.
Are we taking questions from the floor?
There are passages in the Old and New Testament, the Old Testament where the prophet says to God
if you can find 50 people in this town can we preserve it? What about 40? What about 30? What about 10?
So we see a relationship between God's people and God and we see God being persuaded
and in the New Testament we're told to be to persevere like the widow who through her perseverance changed the judge's mind.
How do you understand those readings?
That's so true. Abraham's there almost bartering with God.
There's a boldness and there's a reality to that that God owns and that God wants.
He wants us to seek and ask and knock and plead and persevere
and I think he's doing something in us through that process.
I don't think we have a God who is reluctant but a God who is showing who he is
and showing himself to us through that process.
So the parable of the persistent widow is kind of a how much more punchline.
If even that wicked judge would eventually give in, how much more a God who's gracious and merciful and kind
but he wants to teach us that dependence and that perseverance and prayer
and that boldness and earnestness and seeking his face.
Maren can I just come back a bit? Why do you think it is in the matter of cancer or any other illness
in a sense perhaps the first thing people pray for is healing
or maybe the dominant long-term thing they pray for is it?
Why are we so besotted with healing the only option or the best option?
It's a bit different question from prayer but what do you think?
Well I think we live so much in this world. We love this life and that's not wrong.
It's a good life and the Lord gives us many good things and to have length of days
is a blessing and to see your children and your children's children is wonderful.
But perhaps we too easily forget that there's another world to come
and it's going to be even better and more important than our happiness is our holiness.
So the Lord has another agenda to ours and to love life and want health and pray for that,
that's not wrong but it's wrong if we make that all that life is about.
Okay Murray, assuming that once saved always...
Oh wait let me see, there's two here. I'll just try and summarise this.
I mean it's really a question about falling away and refers to Ephesians 1.14
tells us our inheritance is guaranteed so you spoke about that
and in Hebrews 6 verse 6 it refers to falling away and repentance. Can we fall away?
Yeah it's a good question.
It says in Romans 8 that those He called, He's also justified,
those He justified, He sanctified, those He sanctified, He glorified.
What God begins He will finish and there's no seepage in the process
so that all who come to Christ will be saved and He'll raise them up on the last day.
We're in the Father's hand and none can snatch us out.
We're more than conquerors, nothing can separate us.
There are these many Scriptures that testify to the eternal security of the believer.
So that's why we say once saved always saved
but there are two other scenarios that we see in people's lives
and these two scenarios don't undo that truth of once saved always saved
but we need to understand them in relation to that truth.
One scenario is that people backslide.
People, Christian people, saved people can fall into sin for a period of time
and can stray from the Lord like King David.
A man after God's own heart, he was saved before he fell into sin with Bathsheba
but he fell into that terrible period of sin upon sin
and it seems he was away from the Lord for a great length of time before Nathan the prophet,
probably a year before Nathan the prophet comes and tells that little parable
and nails it and says, you're the man.
There's this period of backsliding and so when you see someone who you are sure has been saved
but now they've fallen into sin, I think one of the things we think in our heads
is maybe this person is backsliding and given that possibility we pray for them
and we urge them and we encourage them and we try to turn the back.
James says right at the end of his letter, how does it put it?
Whoever turns a man, nah, quite a thing.
Look it up. John 5, 19 and 20.
James 5.
My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back,
remember this, whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way
will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
That's a ministry that is entrusted to us to go out and seek after those who are backsliding.
That's one scenario and I believe that whenever a true child of God backslides
and that's me at times and you when we slip away from the Lord,
the Lord will bring us back because he's faithful to the promises he's made
and he won't let his children go.
But there's another scenario and that's a scenario that we call apostasy
and it's where someone turns away and turns away completely and lastingly
but what they turn away from is not true saving faith
but from what to all intents and purposes looked like the real thing but it wasn't
and I think in Hebrews 6 that's what it's talking about.
Someone's been in the covenant community and they've tasted and they've seen
and they've experienced, they've heard powerful preaching,
they've participated in the Lord's Supper,
they've been involved in the life of the church and everyone thought they were in
but there hadn't been that true heart change
and if there's not been a heart change then all those externals are not going to last
and that person falls away, not from true faith but from what seemed to be faith.
So then the question arises in Hebrews of course,
well can that person be saved and Hebrews 6 troubles people
and they think well maybe I'm there.
Once I was committed, now I'm not. Have I committed the sin from which there is no turning back?
I've always felt pastorally that the best thing we can say to such a person is if you're fearing that
and if you're wanting to come back and if your heart is troubled by the fact that you're away
that's a wonderful sign that God is actually still at work,
that He's awakening your conscience and there's still a soft enough heart to be worried about your condition
and for anyone who has a heart like that, cry out to the Lord, seek His mercy, turn to Him
and Christ's promise still stands that He'll never drive you away.
So it's only if you remain there to the end with a hard heart, resisting the Lord and running from Him
well then there's no salvation.
So we can't play games either I think and say look, this person made a decision for Jesus when they were 8 years old
but they've been living this hopeless life ever since.
Well you just can't pin stuff on that so-called decision when they were young.
It's the fruit of our life that is the evidence and the basis for a surety that the Lord has been at work
and when He's been really at work, it'll last.
Thank you Murray. John, a couple for you.
Again a number put together.
When Christ redeemed us on the cross, was Christ's death for only those who were chosen or for all people?
And again 1 Timothy 2 verses 3 and 4 states that God desires everyone to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.
Can you help us to understand this in the light of the teachings we have heard?
So if God wants us all to be saved, Christ's only dying for some and similarly on the front.
Good questions, good questions.
1 Timothy 2 verses 3 and 4, God wants all men to be saved.
The word all and the word world is used many places in the Bible and you've got to work out what it means.
For example it says all the world went out to hedge on the Baptist.
Now nobody thinks for a moment that means every single person in the world went out to hedge on the Baptist.
It means a lot of people.
Likewise here I think in 1 Timothy wants all men to be saved.
It's interesting that comes after verse, obviously verse 4 comes after verse 1.
In verse 1 he says that he wants requests, prayers, intercessions and thanksgivings made for all.
Now that doesn't mean we pray for every single person in the world.
But the word all, he says that the kings and those in authority, so all kinds of people.
People who are governed, people in government, people here, people and so on and so on.
So I think there, of course he's saying that God, it's God's determination and desire to save all kinds of people.
You ought to be praying for all kinds of people.
It shouldn't be limiting to the nice people, to the religious people, to the whatever.
And so I think often people walk because they see the word world or all
and they make it mean every single person but in the context it just can't mean that.
And so we just need to use Bible words with Bible thoughts and not just quote the word.
If I may say that.
So you can't go to this passage and say Jesus won't save that person because they're too awful.
God wants all men including men just like that.
Absolutely. And in turn, similar I think to this other question,
when Christ redeemed us on the cross was Christ's gift for only those who were chosen or for all?
Well yes it was for all.
If we mean all kinds of people, rich, poor, black, white, young, old, yeah it was for all.
Christ hung on the cross to redeem all kinds.
And in the world of the first century where the Jews saw that they were the good guys
and the other guys were the dogs.
That was a threatening sort of, that's the term they used, the Gentiles were the dogs.
It was kind of like a bit of a challenge, a bit of a hit in the face because they've got to learn
that God doesn't treat people in that sort of racial way.
He's concerned for all kinds.
Nowhere does the Bible say that Christ died for every single person in the world.
You can't imagine for a minute I think that Christ is hanging on the cross and saying
Father this death is as much for Judas as for Peter or for Hitler as much as Murray Capel.
That's not like that.
When he hangs on the cross, remember I think we've got to put Jesus' death in context a bit.
We've got to say well the Father has chosen this great multitude.
We know the Spirit comes and regenerates a great multitude,
the same multitude the Father has chosen.
But does the Son hang here in the middle as it were and say well sorry Father, sorry Spirit,
I'm going to give my life to every single person.
The Father has chosen this group, the Spirit regenerates them, but the Son says no, no,
I'm going for a wider group, I'm really the loving one in this trio.
No, no, the Son works perfectly consistently with the Father and the Spirit.
Those whom the Father has chosen, the Son redeems and the Spirit regenerates.
What's your name?
Murray was saying yesterday morning.
Capel, Capel.
It hangs together and I think secondly when we use the word redeem,
the question says when Christ redeems us on the cross, what does he do?
Does he make redemption possible or available or does he redeem?
Does he rescue? Does he reconcile? Does he justify?
Or does he just make those things possible?
Like it's a work where he gets a bag of redemption and puts it on the table
and says well there are folks, it's available for anybody who wants it.
So in other words he makes redemption possible, available.
And I think they're the two big words we hear all the time today in evangelical circles.
Jesus made salvation possible, he made it available.
I think we ought to just throw those words away, we ought to get them out of the dictionary almost.
He didn't make it possible or available, he redeemed on the cross, he reconciled on the cross.
We sang the song today, at the cross I was forgiven.
And who was forgiven at the cross?
All those for whom he died, he knew what he was doing.
This is the third point, at the cross did Jesus get what he paid for?
He says here my father is my life.
Father says sorry, bit of a waste, he didn't get what you thought it was going to get.
Or is it so powerful and effective that it redeems those who he means it to redeem
and wins for them the gifts of faith and the Holy Spirit and perseverance
and every other gift that comes from the cross.
So and then, yeah I was going to say four and five, that'll do I think.
Is that, have I hit the mark?
Oh you've convinced me.
Oh good, well that's a miracle.
See what I have to put up with day after day.
Guys why don't I give you a question each as your last question.
We won't get to all these questions and folk please don't feel ripped off.
We really have tried our hardest and you just pursue these guys with your own questions.
Murray is the real problem.
Keep it short Murray.
Well John look I...
Keep it simple like you would if you were in New Zealand.
Okay.
I think actually Trinity Church is what they call Trinity Church in New Zealand.
John this one's for you, this one's for you.
It's on your talk today.
If the Gospel is the Kingdom of God, which is what you said today, of first importance,
what about the cross, the blood, the righteousness of God?
Where is the Gospel, where in the Gospel is it fully explained?
I reckon the Christians who doesn't just adore God for the cross
and just thank him for the blood spilled and praise him for the righteousness that is imputed to him
is more than a brick sword I can tell you.
This is essential stuff for the believer.
The question is, is it what you say to the unbeliever?
I think the answer is no.
We tell the unbeliever who God is that Christ is king and judge
and we call on them to repent for him.
And as people are repenting I say let me tell you what happens to your sins when you trust Jesus.
I've talked to him about the blood and the cross and the holiness and righteousness of God.
But it's not the thing I tell him in order to bring him to Jesus.
In the Gospels, Matthew, Mark and Luke, Jesus spends 8 chapters in Mark and 9 in Luke,
and I can't remember how many in Matthew, showing the disciples who he is.
And you come to the point where it says who do people say that I am?
You think it's just a Christ trying to live in God.
Then in each Gospel it says from that time on Jesus began to teach them how he must suffer and die and rise.
Otherwise they got it right who he was and they got the clues on what he'd come to do.
And that maybe needs to inform our evangelism I think.
So are we committed to the cross, the blood, the righteousness?
Well look at the songs we've been singing, we sure are.
And they're just the heart and soul for the believer.
But they're not the message that we tell the unbeliever.
We bring him to Christ as it were, that he might then know these things.
But first of all, who is Christ? And will I bow the knee to Christ?
One scripture maybe, I've always been, there's a scripture in Revelation 14
where John says that he saw an angel with the eternal Gospel.
Now eternal I think means one for all time at work,
to proclaim to those who live on the earth, to every nation, tribe, language and people.
This is what you tell people, he said in a loud voice,
fear God and give him glory because the hour of his judgment has come,
worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.
I think it's like when Isaiah preached the Gospel in Isaiah chapter 40,
he stood up and preached and he said, behold your God.
And I tell you, we live in a world where people have got to clue who Jesus is,
or clue who the living God is.
And you've got to start telling him, he's king and judge,
get on your knees before him and look to him for mercy.
I tell you, if you do, you're going to start talking about these other things.
But I want to get it in the right order as it were.
Last one, Maurice.
Several questions on this one.
I've got one here from Matt Trippet, why can't I get a girlfriend?
But Trippet's got wrong so I don't think that was from Matt.
I think that was from David actually.
It's a bit tricky to summarise, Murray.
I think it was really on your talk today,
in which you spoke about dealing with the old nature,
as he rears his ugly head and you hit the, everyone woke up.
Remember that bit?
On the front row, yeah, yeah.
The thoughts from this old nature that come,
judgmental condemning of others, confusion, keep coming.
We know how the Holy Spirit is grieved,
we don't want to have anything to do with them,
yet still they come, so how can we deal with it?
I can't really answer it in one word.
Was that in New Zealand?
No, just to use a few words.
Yeah, look, it's a battle.
Galatians 5 talks very clearly about that.
There's a war on, I mean there's no war when you're not saved.
It's all one way.
Satan's winning hands down, it's all just going one direction.
But once you're saved, the battle begins.
And it's a very real battle and it lasts a lifetime.
And so just because you're struggling doesn't mean you're not saved.
Maybe it means you are saved.
That's when the battle really heats up.
So that's the first thing I'd say.
The second thing I'd say is that battle is won by the Spirit, by grace.
We're not only saved by grace, we're sanctified by grace.
It's the gracious work of God to continue what He's begun and to make us what we are.
So He's made us holy and He makes us holy.
And He does that by the inward work of the Holy Spirit, transforming us and purifying us.
And we'll only make progress in that by casting ourselves on God and on His grace
and leaning on Christ and looking to the Holy Spirit.
It's not just a matter of trying hard to be good.
It's a matter of casting ourselves upon that transforming, renewing work of the Holy Spirit.
But as we do that, the Spirit gives us means to use and we need to lay hold of those means with both hands.
One of them means, of course, is the Word of God, the truth.
Jesus said in His High Priestly Prayer, John 17,
Sanctify them by the truth. Thy word is truth.
And as we immerse ourselves in Scripture and transform our minds by Scripture
and lay hold of promises and so on, that's one of the means the Spirit will use in our lives.
The Lord also uses other people.
We need fellowship and we need encouragement.
We're to encourage one another as long as it's called today, it says in Hebrews.
So we don't go it alone and to make ourselves accountable to other people.
Those are tremendously helpful things.
And of course we repent of sin.
We lay it before the Lord and we cast ourselves on Him
depending on what Christ has already done for us, looking to His finished work.
So it's a process, it's a struggle but it's one in which we lean on God
and on the finished work of Christ and the inward work of the Holy Spirit all the way.
And some of those sins will linger, some of them are so hard to root out of our lives
but God will eventually transform us and by the moment of our death
and when we are snatched into glory, He will transform us completely into the likeness of Christ.
The work will be done well eventually.
Well thank you fellas for your thoughts as you look through those questions.
Murray, why don't you just pray in the light of what's been said and we'll move on to the next thing.
That's better.
Father we have pondered this weekend what a rich gospel you have revealed to us.
And we thank you again now as we have all weekend for your marvellous grace,
for saving us, for setting your love upon us.
But whilst we rejoice in these things it leaves us with a whole packet of questions
some of which we've asked and thought about this afternoon.
Knowing your grace doesn't make life easy and it doesn't just sort of wrap everything up simply.
And so we pray that you would help us continually to search out the truth, wrestle with your word,
help us to cast ourselves on you.
Father we pray for hearts that would have an ever deepening understanding of your purposes.
And we pray that you would conform our wills to your will.
And Father we would thank you for every person here this afternoon,
every heart that has been transformed by your grace
and each saint now seeking to grow increasingly into the likeness of their saviour.
Oh Father please advance that work. Teach us how to pray.
Teach us how to lean on the all sufficiency of Christ.
Teach us how to carry one another's burdens, how to win each other back when we backslide.
Help us to encourage one another and all the more as we see the day approaching.
So we commend ourselves again to your grace now with thankfulness in the name of Jesus. Amen.